Hello fellow Seekers, if you have not yet heard of my next guest then let me tell you, you are in for a treat!  Today we talk with Lisa Campion, a renowned psychic counselor, Reiki teacher, author and fellow podcaster.

Lisa is the author of the #1 best selling book, The Art of Psychic Reiki, and the award winning book Energy Healing for Empaths, as well as Awakening Your Psychic Ability and The Psychic Awakening Journal. She is also the host of the beloved podcast, The Miracle of Healing, on the MindBodySpirit Radio.

Lisa and I  take a  deep dive into the realms of empaths, psychic abilities, and energy healing. We  explore the nuances of empathic gifts, the importance of managing one's sensitivity, and the role that spirit guides play in our personal and spiritual growth. 

 For 30 years Lisa has helped empaths and sensitives step into their gifts.  Now, she shares insights from her extensive experience, highlighting the importance of embracing one's gifts and the necessary training steps from  psychic development to psychic self defence. This discussion is particularly valuable for anyone on a path towards healing and understanding their own potential as an empath and psychic.

00:00 Empaths and Psychic Abilities
01:29 Challenges and Gifts of Being an Empath
03:59   The Percentage Of Empaths In The World Is Increasing
07:32  The Empath Trap
10:23   How To Heal Our Inner Victim
15:08    Why Empaths Might Attract Narcissists
20:20 Psychic Development and Boundary Setting
37:05 Working with Spirit Guides

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Show Transcripts

Today, Lisa Campion joins us on the podcast. Lisa is the author of the another one best selling book, The Art of Psychic Reiki, and the award winning Energy Healing for Empaths, as well as Awakening Your Psychic Ability and Psychic Awakening Journal. She is also the host of the beloved podcast, The Miracle of Healing, that is part of the MindBodySpirit Radio. Lisa is a psychic counselor and Reiki teacher with over 30 years of experience who specializes in training emerging psychics. Empaths and healers to fully step into their gifts and when asked, why does she do this? You'll often hear Lisa say, because the world needs all the healers it can get. Lisa is totally a testament to this statement and I've heard her say it a lot. The psychic counselor and Reiki master teacher with more than 25 years of experience, she has trained more than a thousand people in hands on healing Reiki practice. And conducted more than 15, 000 individual sessions in her career, but I'm particularly excited to have Lisa on the show today because she has been my mentor and teacher at different phases of my journey. And so this sort of feels full circle in a way that feels really special. So I just want to welcome Lisa to the show. Welcome Lisa. So happy to have you here. Oh, thank you, Michelle. I'm so happy to, to be here with you. I'm just so tickled that you invited me and yeah, it's, Great to be here today. Well, it's an honor, so I really appreciate it. So I thought I'd kick off our conversation today to talk a little bit about the duality of being an empath. I think most of my listeners here know the basics of, of what it means for them to be an empath. Um, I'd like to talk about something you refer to in your book, The Energy Healing for Empath. That double edged sword. I think you quote unquote said something like when you meet an empath the first time you're both like congratulations, and I'm sorry. Yeah, I think it is a double edged sword, you know, because it's such an incredibly powerful gift and yet it can really feel like a curse. So I think it's for people that haven't learned how to manage their sensitivity yet where it feels very powerful. Heavy, very burdensome, overwhelming, um, it can get so bad that we don't feel like leaving the house or our world sort of diminishes, like narrows down into like the three things we can do without blowing our circuits, right? And that, you know, I feel like there's depression, anxiety, addictions that can come along with this and until we learn really how to manage it and, you know, I think, I think us on unprotected empaths live in sort of a constant state of overwhelmed, being overwhelmed by our emotions, being overwhelmed by other people's emotions, and that's super challenging. And that's sort of the shadow side of it, but the good side of it is that once we learn how to manage our energy a little bit better, I believe that we are like the healers, caretakers, you know, service providers of the world. I feel like we're, we're here in, we're here to really help people and to serve humanity in some really powerful, beautiful ways. And, you know, uh, my goal for all the empaths is to learn how to manage their sensitivity and step into that powerful side. And then we can sort of walk through the world and do what we came here to do. Maybe that's working as therapists or working as Reiki healers, working as You know, in hospice, you know, holding the babies in the NICU or doing kitchen table Reiki, all the things that were, I mean, if you think about it, if the world was made of empaths and we were, we, the world be a better place, you know, it'd be like, we'd all be caring about how each other felt. There wouldn't be any. starving children anywhere, or there wouldn't be wars, you know, like, I think we're kind of holding a higher vibe of what it's like and to live in that state of open heartedness and, you know, unity consciousness, right? Like we're, we're feeling like connected to all of all living things and. That seems incredibly, incredibly, incredibly important on the planet right now. So, and we have some work to do, right? We have some work to do to get there. Yeah. Yeah. I really believe that there's so many more empaths being born now than ever. It seems like there's. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've listened to people who see, who specialize in working with empaths, and they, the beginning kind of see it as like, there's just like 2 percent of the population is empathic. But man, I feel like as the, these younger generations are coming in, there's so many. More empaths are walking into my office at this point, but I feel like that's all part of the healing of the world, that we need to generate more and more of us sensitive beings. For sure. I think there's a couple things going on there. So, Michelle, I totally agree with you that there's more. I see every new generation coming in with more and more. Sensitive, psychic people, sort of, you know, Zyndigo children, rainbow children, whatever we want to call them, that there's more evolved souls being born onto the planet. And that empath nature is a little bit of, you know, part of that, like as we become more old souls, our empath, empath nature tends to increase. I also feel like because of, you know, there's more conversation in the, you know, collective right now about being an empath and back when I figured out I was an empath, it was like 1982. And there was no language. That's when I had my aha moment. Like, Oh my gosh, I think I'm, I think I'm an, I didn't know what to call it because there wasn't actually a word, you know, it wasn't until the nineties and, um, sort of the highly sensitive person, you know, conversation came in. Or I remember like being really young and watching Star Trek and, you know, there was an empath on the side and I was like, Oh my God, I think that's what I am. Right. so I, I think as we talk about it, you know, that was like science fiction. That wasn't a real thing. That was like, you know, science fiction. So. But I think is, you know, we have, we talk about it more, there's more books about it and more podcasts like this, you know, more and more people are recognizing that's what they are. They're, they're like, oh, maybe I'm not just crazy. Maybe I'm not just an insane human who like can't control my emotions, you know, and we're realizing, okay, this is a thing. Um, so I think it's both right. It's just entered the collective conversation and there's more people. Yeah. Yeah. And while we talk about, you know, that overwhelm of emotion, one of the things you talked about in your book that I'd love to just kind of bring up a couple that popped out to me was just talking about that empathic overload. And one of the things I was going to talk about a little bit down the road here also is how I think this actually, this empathic overload, I think it also can sometimes for some people. Um, almost make them want to say I'm not an empath because they don't want to identify with being this weak, overly emotional person. There are people in their childhood, a lot of empaths in their childhood, right? That grew up being told they were too much. And so they've, right. And so they've decided. that they are going to be tough and then strong. And so I, I've had a couple of them come into like classes, Reiki classes and things like that and saying, well, I don't think I'm an empath and really realizing, I think they just don't want to identify with this person who's so emotionally overloaded and it can be seen as a weakness. I thought we could kind of tap into your topic on emotional overload. Um, one of the things that you said in your book was trapped by being too nice. And I thought that one really res, will resonate with a lot of people. I mean, they all will, but saying no, this is your word saying no feels so mean. Empaths often feel as if our very worth depends on our service to other people. And when we set a boundary, a healthy boundary, and choose not to be of service in that moment, we feel shame and guilt. And that just, I think is such an issue, you know, it is, you know, and the empath trap is like, when you feel like seeing, like, it's so hard to say no to other people because we're really in this, like, there's just like boomerang energy that happens. I say no to you and then you feel bad and then I feel all your feelings. So I'm feeling all my guilt and shame, fear around saying no, that I'm feeling whatever your reaction is. Quite frankly, people don't like it when we say no to them, right? So, you know, especially when we're, we haven't, we're not, they're not used to us saying no. And then all of a sudden we start saying no or setting boundaries. And now we have to not only deal with our shame and fear and all our, we have to deal with the other, the backlash, the other person's, um, emotional response. And there's so much energy there that it's instead of dealing with that, it's just easier just to say yes. Right? So we don't have to deal with all the sticky, complicated, you know, stuff that goes on there. And I feel like part of our empowerment process is empaths is to learn how to, to learn how to sort of hold up to sort of, I always say tolerate other people's, how to tolerate the discomfort other people have when, um, when we say no, and I don't mean that you need to tolerate other people's bad behavior. Like if you say no, sometimes when you say no to people, they throw a fit. I'm not saying tolerate that fit. I'm just saying tolerate. Inside yourself, the discomfort, you know, um, that, that we feel or that other people feel when we say no, like people are entitled to their feelings. Like, you know, you can, you don't have to like that. I said no, but the answer is still no. And you can't take that out on me either, by the way. But that, that's so hard, especially when it's your kids or your spouse or your boss or people where, when we have like really a strong agenda or we, we have to get along with them, your in laws, your parents, like. You know, these tricky relationships we have, we don't really generally like conflict so much, right, as empaths. So I think there's also kind of like learning how to handle conflict without absorbing all this negativity. And that's the empath trap. Does that make sense? Yes, that makes so much sense. And I especially like how you just referred to the importance of learning to tolerate your own discomfort versus other people's bad behavior. And you know, another important thing you Talk about in your book is I thought was such an important thing for all of us to hear was about our own own victim identity. For some of us, there comes a time when our inner victim, which is calling out for others to take care of us, needs to be healed or let go, right? So I giggled a bit when I, um, read about the person who showed up in class, you put this in your book, what you should, the person who shows up in class and needs everybody else to make changes in the room so they can be more comfortable. And I think a lot of us have some of that in us and have, well, we all have the inner victim, right? Could you speak a little bit to that? Yeah, I can totally speak to that. You know, it's, it's a really common thing that I think like when, first of all, I just want to honor the fact that a lot of highly sensitive people have actually been really victimized. And we all have been in some way, you know, we've all been through difficult things. And, You know, I don't want to diminish that. I don't want to blame the victim. I, in fact, I think that empaths are often targeted at, for, um, by perpetrators at a higher rate than other people. So sometimes as empaths, we really have to carry the burden of being, having actually been victimized. So I certainly don't want to diminish that at all. I just sometimes notice that as people. Cotton on to the fact that they're empaths, or they discover that this is who they are, they can really, I don't know, it's like a little Woundology, as Carolyn Mace calls it, right, where we use what's happened to us as kind of currency, you know, it's kind of like leverage, like, well, I'm way more sensitive than you are, and, um, and we have to walk eggshells around that person, or, In a way, they end up controlling their room, controlling the environment because they're, you know, we can't step on their triggers or we can't, you know, say certain things because we're triggered that, you know, honestly, and I think the way out of that is you know, to be empowered is to fully own that victim side and really take a deep look at it, do some shadow work on how, you know, We all run victim energy because we all do. It's an archetype every single human has. So we really need to understand how we do it and make sure that, we're not victimizing other people. With our sensitivity, you know, and I see this a lot with the whole and the whole energy vampire conversation too that sometimes, you know, imposter are like the first people to like throw holy water and, you know, garlic yet and, and bring, bring out the silver cross, you know, around people they consider energy vampires and yet they may be, it's the untrained and I always want to hold everybody's hands when I say this and send so much love. But the, and no judgment that it's often the untrained unthought who's the biggest energy vampire in the room, you know, and. You know what? Let's look in the mirror before we start sort of telling everyone that they're a narcissist or telling everyone that they're an energy vampire and making sure we're minding our own energy. So we are fully responsible for ourselves. This is how we get out of victim status, no, regardless of who we are. You are a hundred percent responsible for your needs, your triggers, your, you know, you, your emotional regulation, your nervous system regulation. It's on you. It's on you to handle it and, and expecting other people to do that for you is incredibly disempowering for everybody. It's incredibly disempowering for them and also for you. So the only way, the only way to really gain that empowerment is to take a hundred percent ownership, of ourselves. You know, that we as sensitives. That way where we get out of feeling victim and potentially victimizing other people is to take 100 percent responsibility for our own emotional states, our own emotional regulation, our own needs, our own nervous system regulation and expecting other people to walk around our triggers and, you know, bend to us empowering for us and for other people too. So that's the trick is to just 100 percent own it. Like you've got to own your. You, as an empathic sensitive, have to figure out how to manage yourself emotionally, how to regulate yourself emotionally in your nervous system. Then once you do that, but I swear, Michelle, the next book I'm going to write is going to be about how do we regulate our nervous system? How do we regulate our emotions? Because I feel like 90 percent of the problems of the world could be solved if everyone could do that. And because when you say that, everybody's like, yes. And then they're like, how do I do that? Yeah. That'd And it's not a quick thing, right? It's a lot of work. And I think that would be a very good book. Um, because, and I think it will fly off the shelves because I think everybody's at a point cause there's a lot more people waking up and a lot more people wanting to do the work, why we can have these podcasts and have all these people listening is because they're like, I need to be, I want to shift. I want to feel better. I want to, right. And so. Yeah, so agreed and I being, identifying our victim, whether you're empath or not, is something I think that every human in the world has to do is understand. Absolutely. We all have that archetype, right? Everyone has it. We all do. Whether you're an empath or not. I also think it's always interesting also to look around at what you're attracting, right? So like, are you attracting a lot of these? Why? Why are you attracting this? And I know that you were saying empaths tend to attract. These folks because of their sensitivities and yeah, I'm not sure why I really think it's sort of a boundary issue. And if you're like sort of a predatory narcissist, psychopathic type, and you look around at all the available options for who you're going to take a bite out of, you know, you're going to probably pick the person that doesn't have such strong boundaries. It's a conflict avoidant. That seems so sensitive, um, they may be like better emotion, you know, to easier to manipulate. and so I do feel like empaths are targeted, empathic children seem to be targeted more frequently for abuse than, you know, and I don't have any research on that. It's just actually, my observation after doing, lots and lots of sessions with people. And having a clinical practice for a long time and you know, one of my own clients told me that she thought she was chosen by a predator because her boundaries were so permeable and you know, and because on some levels, the psychologist told me this, somebody who works with people like that perpetrators told me because on some level as, as messed up as it is, um, people who abuse other people want them to feel it. They want, they want to feel. They want to be felt, you know, and it's sort of like a really messed up way to kind of merge or bond with somebody, you know, it's a theory. I don't have any, any evidence to substantiate that, but I do wonder if it's true. Yeah. Well, the other thing you talk about in your book as well is just the part of the empath overload leads to overgiving, but also people pleasing. Yeah. And so, um, who better? For a narcissist to target someone who wants to be a people pleaser and how they find their worth is through pleasing other people. Through pleasing. And I feel like there's this dance, you know, there's this continuum, the spectrum with empaths on one side and narcissists or energy vampires, whatever we call them, it's really the same thing on the other side. And that like any continuum, we attract somebody that is on the opposite. End of the spectrum that we are, it's just, that's just like the universal law of resonance operating right there, you know, that we get, if you're over here on the empath, you're going to get somebody that's over there on that, on that other side of the spectrum, and that in some ways, there's an opportunity there, doesn't always happen for growth, but there is an opportunity for growth in the middle, right, is the middle point is what it is. Psychologists call healthy narcissism. That's just having a healthy sense of self esteem. So we have an opportunity to step towards that middle and develop some healthy self esteem. They have an opportunity to open their hearts and practice, you know, learn how to think about how other people feel, become more apathic somewhere in the middle, right? There's this meeting point. And like I said, it doesn't always happen, but I do think there's potential. That's why we keep, you know, and if you've been, if you're an empath who's been in a relationship with a narcissist, you just know they're, they're gonna give you a lots of opportunities to set boundaries. By hook or by crook, they will force you to set boundaries eventually, you know, and, and then we learn. So, I don't know, I'm kind of a hopeful person, an optimistic kind of person, but I'm always hopeful that there can be growth and evolution and all the encounters that we have. Even if it means you set a boundary and step away from somebody, there's still learning there, right? Absolutely. We're still learning and growing in that. And you know, even in understanding in your own process, I always believe we're right on time. So like even that empath that keeps thinking, Oh, this person will do the work to meet me in the middle that continue, we were just talking about and they repeatedly don't. And so I think as empaths, we tend to want to give a lot of chances and that in itself is also part, I think. You know, learning and growing. So yeah. So I'm going to switch us up a little bit because there's a couple of topics I really want to get to today that are very juicy and I know that my listeners will be really excited about us chatting about. And that is, well, one of the things I'm going to start with that I don't even know when you said this. I have a look on a quote on one of the little courses I did. I have you plastered in little places. Hey, you're sprinkled, but not all psychics are empaths, but all empaths are psychic. And that was something you said a while, a long time ago, but it's always, I've always kind of shared that message because I think it's. One of the, when you say that it's such a gift to be an empath, it's such a beautiful gift part of being an empath. And there's a lot of empaths that, that because of their smallness or whatever they do to manage their biggest stuff, they say, Oh, I'm not psychic. And then we talk to them and we kind of, you know, we get into it and it's like, boom, all this crazy psychic experiences. Yeah. So I thought we could talk a little bit and kind of move into your kind of a little bit of the material from your next book. And kind of look at, I want to talk about working with guides, but I also just wonder if we could talk about what it's like for empaths to be psychic and sort of the responsibility that they have to take and delivery of that information. Yeah, such a good point. And I do think it is one of the good sides of it. I, I, not everyone feels that way. Maybe, but I do. I think it's super cool. Like it's a kind of a benefit. We get to be psychic and I think the responsibility part is that if you want to really activate that gift, you probably need some training, you know? So psychic ability is like an ability like anything, like musical ability, athletic ability. People have this idea that you're just born psychic and you are, but we are all born with a different, I'm out of that gift, but we always need training. And when you look at people who are professional psychics, Or the psychics you see on TV, they've done a boatload of training, just like if you wanted to be a professional musician, a professional athlete. We don't think, oh, that person got there without having to do any work. We know they worked really hard to get there. And it's the same thing with psychic ability. It's like a muscle you have to practice to activate it. And, and so I think that's true. I also think that a lot of times empaths have the full range, often many have the full range of psychic ability, so it can come in on all the different channels and I think until we know boundaries, it can be quite overwhelming, right, we're already dealing with, you know, enough stimulation just by being out in the world and having to deal with other people and throwing the psychic stuff on top of it can kind of be the straw that broke the camel's back sometimes. So again, we go back to boundaries and the good news is once we set boundaries, energetic boundaries, verbal boundaries at work, it doesn't matter if you're dealing with a living person or a dead person, it's going to work. So there, you know, I think. Many empaths don't feel safe opening up their psychic ability until they get better boundaries and really learn the energy management basics that are so important. And then when we do, it's super fun. And I, I also think that sometimes empaths reject their psychic ability because they're feeling everything, you know, it's coming a lot into the second chakra, that navel chakra, that sense of feeling, it's called clear sentience. And sometimes we may reject that because. Well, it's just me being emotional or that's just always, you know, it's, I'm not seeing anything and you're not psychic unless you're seeing anything, which totally is not true, but you know, so we need training and we need to sort of sort ourselves out a little bit so we can open safely. Yeah. And one of the other things that you mentioned kind of in line with all this is also one, which I thought was cool in the book, was just listing that sort of percentage that like even the best psychic in the world is only 80 percent of the time accurate, right? Yeah. And that we're dealing with, free will and choices. I don't know if we could talk about that sort of stuff, but I think that that's really interesting for people to hear about that. Because I know that a lot of my students, when I'm teaching Reiki and different things, they're like, They feel a great deal of responsibility delivering information and right, and so they feel a great deal of responsibility and there's this point at which I feel kind of like, you know, that I think it also gives them some freedom. Like it could take a sigh of relief, like person has choice, right? Yeah. You're not in charge of it all. Exactly. We don't have to be right all the time. We don't have to share all the time. So there's ethics involved that we really, really should talk about too. And, you know, when I see things psychically, I'm always, I'm only ever seeing probabilities, you know, there's not, hardly anything is set in stone. We live in a really powerful free will universe, uh, universe and free will dimension. So I'm like, well, 80 percent probability is the highest I'm ever going to go with somebody that X, Y, and Z happens. But I can tell you that and you, five minutes later, you could make a different decision. You could ask, or the people involved could make a different decision. So. It's a bit like the weather. 80 percent probability of rain today. And we don't freak out if that doesn't happen, you know, we understand like, prediction, especially when we're dealing with the future, we're, we're just dealing, it's like predicting the weather. I think there's things like we're way less accurate when we're dealing with our close, close, Friends, our family, our children, you know, and that when you have a strong emotional bond with somebody, your accuracy goes way down. I can never see things about my kid. I can see things about your kids, but if I want information about my kids, I'm going to call you. Because you're going to see things about my kids, you know, that I can't see. So um, you actually helped me out a lot with that to be honest. Yeah, we were at a, I'm just going to put this little story in because I think it's really interesting and it adds to this. We were at a, um, singing bowl session and you, I sat up and I was freaked out because I just watched my entire family go off the side of a cliff in a car. Like it was a, like just a vision. And I looked at you and I go, and you go, sweetheart, are you okay? And I said, I said, I just saw my whole family go off the side of the mountain and die. And you were like, no, you didn't. That's not going to happen, right? And, and I said, I think it's going to happen. You said, it's not going to happen. And it really grounded me like, you know, how, what you're saying, right? Like we are, if it's fear based, right, how do we tell if it's real information? If it's fear based, if it comes with this huge emotional content, it's not intuition, right? If you're triggered, it's not a real psychic. It could be a fear. It could be a past life memory. When people say they see things like that, I'm like, well, what did you see? You know, maybe. You just have a fear. Maybe it was something that already happened in, in another lifetime. That's another possibility. Yeah, and it, and I think with our own families, that's it. If super reactive, super triggering, not, not a real hit. Yeah. Yeah. It's such important for all of us to hear who have a sensitivity. I hear it all the time, like I'm, and why people are afraid of opening up to the psychic stuff because they're afraid they're going to see bad things about their family or they're going to have information they don't know what to do with in that sense. People are so afraid. And when I do start psychic development with anybody, the first thing we do in the very first class is talk about fear because we, we can't really open until we sort of handle that. And almost everybody has fears like. Fear that you're going to go crazy, or that other people are going to think that you're crazy. Fear that you're going to open up and see bad things. Maybe, a lot of us had bad experiences when we were kids. And we shouldn't, you know, you saw this dark, creepy thing walking down your hallway, you know, in front of your bedroom door, in your room, you know, and nobody believed you when you were a kid. Okay, that's my story. But, um, you know, it happens, yeah, a lot of, it happens for a lot of us. So we think, oh my gosh, I, I'm going to see that creepy thing in the hall again, if I open back up again, you know, or, um, you know, there's just so many fears that we're even going to attract bad things if we open up, like, so we're going to attract ghosts and, you know, I mean, I can understand why people are afraid because we've had bad experiences or we've watched a lot of paranormal ghost stories and movies and media doesn't help that. Right. And. It just never ends very well for the poor psychic paranormal horror movie, does it? I mean, that poor tortured psychic. Oh, right. And, uh, that gets eaten by the, you know, the demonic ghost. Every single time. And, and I think in our minds, we're like, Oh gosh, I don't want that. Better. Who would want that? You know, who would want that? Who would want that? So I think we need to really break down our fears and kind of look at them, deconstruct them a little bit and unpack that and, and think, well, is that really true? I mean, You know, at this point in my life now, am I really afraid people are going to think I'm crazy or I'm going to attract bad things? And then we go back to psychic self defense. And because I almost never teach, I really never do teach psychic development without psychic self defense, I would never open somebody up psychically without giving them the tools they need to kind of protect themselves. And then it's like being street smart, like you're street smart. I'm street smart. I'm not scared walking down the street in New York or Paris or Tokyo, you know? And. Because, I mean, because I know what not to do, I don't do stupid things, I, I go with the map, guide, I walk on the streets that are safe, um, and when I, I'm not sure I take a taxi, like we do, you know, we know what to do, right? And I think psychic development is a lot like that, when you have the basic information, the basic ground rules, we can navigate through these worlds totally safely. Um, if we're sensible and we're not doing the stupid things that we see other people do on paranormal TV shows, don't like don't do those things. Yes. But, um, you know, there, don't use the Ouija boards, don't, you know, poke around the hornet's nest. But as long as we don't do those things, we're, we're really okay and it's quite safe. Yeah. Yeah. And how many of us raise your hand if you ever use a Ouija board, right? Like I'm raising my God, yeah. Right. Totally. Me too. Like in junior high school, your friends sleep over, right? You know, that's your friends sleep over in the basement. Yeah. Well, and the Ouija board comes out and right, you know, shenanigans ensues, but I mean, if you just did it once, it's not a problem. It's not, um, unless it is, unless sometimes it can be, but right. I think it, it's sort of this basic, the basic ethics too, of knowing what to say. And that's a super important part of the conversation is we see things happen in, on these paranormal shows or ghosts, medium shows, I mean, they're, they're staged, right? So they're not real life unfolding. If you see the medium like walk into the shoe store and tell the shoe store lady this message about her grandmother and the shoe store lady cries, happy, grateful tears, well, that's, you know, been rehearsed the everyone side waivers, you know, I mean, it's not really what the model we want to take and, and the ethics of we don't, we don't do what I call the psychic hit and runs where we, share our psychic information with some poor, unsuspecting human who didn't, okay. You know, ask us for that. We go with permission, you know, we ask permission and I always have it. I just say, I have a, don't tell, I don't ask them to tell policy. If you do not ask me, I'm not going to say, unless you're in a session, you know, unless you're a client and we're in a session together, literally I would have no friends, Michelle, if I just blurted out every psychic impression I had about my children would not talk to me. I would have no friends, you know? And so I just keep my mouth shut. I don't share and I tell my people. If you want to know something, you've got to ask and guess what they, they never do. They never do because they, we just want to live our life and I'm their mom or their friend, you know? And so, you know, it's really, really, we have to be very, very mindful about how we impact other people with our, our psychic messages and just make sure you ask before you share things. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Because we have been sort of inundated with this obnoxious kind of view of the psychic who just kind of walks in or, um, and blurts it all out. And also, one of the things I'm thinking of right now is maybe you could also point out. That drinking alcohol and playing psychic at the party is not always a good endeavor. No, no bueno. In fact, psychic development and recreational drugs or drinking is not a good match at all. and I don't have a problem with people doing those things recreationally for fun. Have your glass of wine, have a little recreational marijuana if it floats your boat. Cannabis is very healing for people's minds, you know. It's a good medicine for a lot of us. It doesn't mix well with psychic and so, um, alcohol blurs your boundaries, drops your boundaries, disinhibits you, makes you say things you regret, we all know that's true, right? And then when you mix psychic in there, It's really not good. You're going to have a whole lot more to regret. You're going to have a whole lot more to regret. And it also like really lowers your boundaries. So if you're already struggling with your boundaries, Exactly. Um, then drinking alcohol actually sort of fuzz, it sort of makes the outer edge of our energy field even more porous. And you know that, and you think while you're drinking maybe in a club or a bar that's maybe not very high vibrational and I think part of the hangover we have is like the Energy hangover you get from, you know, drinking and kind of a low, low vibe place. Yeah. Um, or there was energy where there's energy that's maybe not so great. Um, one of the worst hangers, hangovers I ever had was having a few too many drinks in a casino. And I think part of it was the few too many drinks, but most of it was the casinos, which really was really filled with a lot of really low vibe energy happening there. So yeah, I can struggle in casinos for if I stay there too long. Yeah. That's, there's a lot of, you know, like. Maybe not so such great things happening there, you know, and a lot of sort of addictions and you know It's a bit more like we're trying to elevate our frequency and raise our vibration and places like that So don't really help and then drinking in a place like that makes you even more vulnerable to the more poor You know, yeah more porous picking up those vibes. So um and and some people report That using marijuana in psychic activities can attract astral entities and it's tricky when that one because oftentimes it makes us more psychic, but also creates again more permeability and we can be problematic and don't take the, don't smoke a lot of weed and take the Ouija board to the abandoned mental hospital. And You know, on Halloween, that sounds like a bad idea. Do that Or if you do that, don't call me. You know, lots of people do kind of stuff like that. And just roll around in the, in the practices. And if you wanna do ghost hunting, there are safe ways to do it. It is considered a high risk psychic activity. You. And it's hard to be safe while you're doing it. You can do it. Just be really, really mindful. Don't go alone. Be really well trained, you know, and I did it for years, Michelle, the house clearing stuff. So. Um, and I, I did it back in the nineties when nobody was doing it. This is sort of the story of my life, you know, and because I, my friend, he was a realtor, had a super haunted house. I wouldn't sell. And she's like, can you come over and clear this house? And I was like, okay. Cause I, I, I had no idea. Yeah. Like what, what are you doing? And I just made every mistake I did go alone. I did have no idea what I was walking into. It was incredibly haunted. It was particularly hard and eventually, it took me months to clear it and eventually I did because I learned along the way, this was like 1990, I don't know, 97. It was a long time ago, there was no manual, there was no books written about it, there was no ghost hunting TV shows, I was thrashing and bumbling my way through it and making every mistake. Along the way is, is true for most of my career, but, yeah, it can be like really dangerous, very, can be a very, very dangerous pastime. So yeah, I got, I did it, I got sick, I had, you know, I did it for like almost 10 years, I think. And then I finally stopped because I got very ill. I had spirits follow me home. I, I just, you know, ran into every single issue and problem you can have. and I, I saw things I wish I'd, I know things I wish I didn't know, I saw things I wish I'd never seen, you know, um, it really can open us to the darker side of things. And like I said, if that's truly a calling for you, by all means do it cause it needs to be done. Just get really good training. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, there are some of us that are, I think it's something you said to me once actually, is that, for instance, I think you said about yourself is that you have one foot in the door of both worlds. So you have one foot in the door of darkness and one foot in the door of light. And then we decidedly said, Michelle, you have both your feet in light. I think that's not for you, Michelle. That's not for me. I don't ever get that stuff. I think one time I was doing a healing and I had this crazy distant, like figured face, black, float in front of me and like try to eat my face and then like go away. And I was like, and then I've, I've, I've cleared, you know, obviously I did all the clearings I could do angelically. And then, um, you know, I haven't really had, I don't get that stuff. So people come to me. And they say, well, you know, I'm wondering about this dark guy. I'm like, you know what? Talk to my friend, Lisa Campion. That's right. Yeah. I have had, I have had quite a lot of those experiences and seen a lot of stuff. And you know, yeah, you're definitely in the more of an angelic. type healer and, and that's, and that's great. And you also know how to deal with the shadow. Your, the shadow you're dealing with is people's trauma, you know, and that is, you know, that's ultimately what, what it all comes down to really is sort of different versions of that, I think. Yeah. So I want to shift us into our last little bit here, um, as we could talk all day, I think, about so many really cool things, but I know that. You know, this was a big part of your Psychic Awakening book, and I know that a lot of people are very curious about guides. And so we're talking about all sort of like the entities and the low vibrational stuff. So maybe we could just end on talking about some of the more high vibrational stuff, um, you know, working with guides and who are these guides? People want to know, right? Yeah. Did they once live? Who are they? And how can they help us? Yeah, we all have a team of spirit guides. And I think if, I think if it is a team or committee, cause I, I see multiple guides around every person. Um, and they are non physical spiritual beings whose role it is to help us and assist us. It's really, really hard to incarnate on planet Earth, right? So we wouldn't come here without our team of like our bodyguards and our support personnel and our spiritual advisors and our besties, you know, we sort of pack in the support and And they can be everyone's teams different, but maybe there are relatives who have crossed over. Maybe they're angels. You know, everybody has at least one angel with them. They may be the ascended masters, you know, people who have reached enlightenment and don't come here anymore. Like Jesus, Buddha, Kuan Yin, Mother Mary, you know, Krishna, like there's many, many, many, many of them. Maybe they're animals, power animals, you know, they could be the pets you've had that have crossed over but maybe they're sort of the spirit of the elephant or the spirit of the phoenix or, you know, that, that can help us. They're light, they're beings of light that are really beings of pure consciousness, divine beings, they're, they're all kinds and, I've been doing this for a long time and I'm constantly seeing new things that I've never like, I've never seen this before. It's this new being of light. I don't quite know how to categorize. And oftentimes there's like one of them that will be sort of the spokesperson for us, you know, they, and they hold different roles. They can be healers and protectors and teachers, panions, you know, the spiritual director who's sort of going to poke you and, and get you rolling on your path of enlightenment. Yeah. And, and show you the way, you know, for your spiritual evolution. And it, I do think it's so fun. And I think that a really easy way to get started with this is to get a card deck, get a card deck of spirit guides and. You know, that has, or get a bunch of different card decks. So maybe you get an animal deck and a goddess stack and a, you know, angel deck and an ascended master deck. That'd be a great place to start. I mean, it's a lot of decks, but if you start pulling, if you start pulling from them on a regular basis, you'll notice, Oh, I have this angel deck and there's 50 cards in there. And I pull the same three ones all the time. You know, that's telling you something important that you should know. Right. And sometimes that these guys are famous and we've heard about them. Oh, and sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're, they're just, you know, unique to us or they're not like the famous archangel or the famous ascended master there, but that doesn't mean they're not as important or powerful. And it is really, really fun, I think, quite comforting to know who your team is and to begin a conversation with them, which the cards can be really helpful for so that we can receive. I think part of my goal in teaching psychic development to people is to teach them who their team is and to help them communicate directly with their team so that, you know, and that's why people come to me as a psychic because they want that information. I'm acting sort of as a translator between your team and and you. To give you the direct message they're trying to give you. And I feel like how cool is it if you can learn how to do that for yourself. And I would love everyone to be so psychically trained they don't need me anymore. That'd be great. Wow. Yeah. Well, one of the things that, um, I did want to say that you mentioned in the book as you were just talking and made me think about it is kind of said something to the effect of like, what guides are not. And one of it was like, they are not responsible for telling you what to do kind of stuff, right? And like,, you know, I get a lot of people that are very eager. It's like, can you tell me, can you tell me? Like, so when my clients come in, this is one of the reasons why I kind of slowed down and stopped doing a little bit less of that psychic stuff is just because there was such an eagerness for people to be told what to do. And as a, and I'm, I'm so, I've been trained as a therapist and for, you know, for so long and that was like very strict around the boundaries. Like you never tell someone what to do. Well, that's not how I operate anymore, but there is like a real sense of like a feeling for me when people are just so desperate for someone to tell them what to do. And so I think people kind of go into their guides work sometimes the same way. If you could speak to that at all. Absolutely. And I'm with you. Like I, on this topic, I really believe that we would, should never give up our sovereignty and our free will is our most powerful superpowers humans, you know, and how we really grow is we choose and we experience the results of our choices. And, you know, I think our guides are, are here to help and support us, but they're, they're not, they can't do the work for you. They can't take away your karma. They can't fix things. They can't, you know, if you do this, if you do something stupid, they can't, you know, Isolate you from the consequences of that. And because we don't learn, just like if you have kids, you don't do your kids homework for them because they can't learn. They won't learn if you do that. You know, so we can have sort of this codependent relationship with our guides where we're we give up our sovereignty and. The power of our free will now really your guides are can help you. So when people ask me, what should I do? I'm like, well, let's talk about that. You know what you want and how do you feel and what do you need? And here are some of the choices that I see for you. Like here's some of the potential pathways. Let's explore these pathways. So that, you know, I think there can be great value in holding space for somebody to explore, you know, or hear some potential outcomes, like if you go down this path, it's maybe, you know, there's a probability that it might be like that. Is that what you want? You know, that we can, as healers and psychics, really hold space for people to you. Look at some of their choices, right? Yeah. I think that, you know, kind of what you just said, but you, when you were saying maybe your, one of your goals is to not to be needed at some point, right? And I think that really speaks to how healing this work is. It's one of the things I say a lot is that one of the greatest mental health tools you have is going in and learning how to be intuitive, how to tap into your gifts. That's right. And you know, you know, and when we talk about a lot of this stuff, you've been working with your guide, like learning how to do that. You know, Lisa, it's such a beautiful, incredible healing, deep healing gift. And I don't think people even realize that. They think it's gonna be fun. They think it's cool, and then they really get into it. And it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And I, I always, um, do so much personal development in spiritual development in my psychic classes. And I think. People sign up for psychic class. They think it's going to be fun. I'm not saying it's not fun, but I will tell you, there are parts that are very fun. There are parts that are really fun, but a hundred percent certainty that as soon as you do it, your stuff's going to come up. And, and so I've never been able to separate those two. And in fact, one, my teacher, one of my teachers told me that psychic ability is a by product of spiritual and personal growth. You know, it's what happens when we do spiritual growth, even, you know, Yosui sensei, the, you know, founder of Reiki, said that as well, like he didn't set out to start a healing modality. He created a spiritual practice that was so powerful that when people who's a Buddhist, you know, and then his spiritual practice was so powerful that people uncovered their psychic ability and uncovered the healing ability as a byproduct of this development, personal and spiritual development. So, I'm, I just think, it's not even the end goal, it's a byproduct of it, it's a byproduct, it's a symptom of being well, that's right, yes, and being spiritually awakened, you know, and so I always, I mean, I've been a healer for a long time and was also trained as a therapist so I actually love that healing part and, um, to me that's the fun part, like yes, I'm going to teach some, we're going to teach a lot of really cool psychic stuff we're going to get. down and work on whatever and old school psychics called this clearing the channel and they knew that in order to be a good psychic, you had to get your own issues out of the way. So you could be a clear channel for the information that was coming through. Wow. This is so great, Lisa. This is so wonderful. Thank you so much again for talking with us today. I feel like we could talk forever and I just want to make sure I value the fact that our time is running out. So I just want to take this last moment to just put out there. Is there anything you want to share how people can work with you? Is there anything going on? Yeah, sure. Come by my website, um, lisacampion. com and you can find out all about the classes they teach, all levels of Reiki, that I call Psychic Reiki, which is Psychic Call and Reiki, Psychic Development and Reiki smushed together. Um, I teach all levels of Psychic Development from beginner to advanced to a year long apprentice program where I train people how to become professional Psychic Healers. So, I've got a YouTube channel, I've got all the socials, you know, all the things. All those things will be in the show notes, too, so everybody can find Lisa very easily. Right, and all my books are available on Amazon, um, and I'm just really here, here to help, so if I can help, I hope you'll let me know, because I'd definitely love to do that. Awesome. Thank you so much, Lisa. Thanks, Michelle.