In this episode, Bess,  who  lost her mother to cancer  just before becoming a mother again  with twins,  shares her journey of managing grief alongside the joys and challenges of raising three young children. She discusses the complexities of being a caregiver, the mixed feelings of relief after her mother's passing, and the adjustments to motherhood without her. 

She discusses the complexities of being a caregiver and the relief she experienced when her mom finally passed only to find true greif taking over a year or two later.

Bess, a therapist herself,  explores grief's bottomlessness and ways that she is able to embrace joy again and accept the ongoing process of healing and personal growth. 

Together we explore techniques for releasing blocked emotions from the body and the importance of self-nurturing. 

But most Heartwarming ❤️  is the special journey that Bess is on; rediscovering her mom and getting to know her better. Bess feels that she is picking up where her mom's healing journey left off and their parallel lives are teaching her lessons.  

Connecting with the belief that soul contracts are to be respected, can shed some light on the personal work we are here to do when someone we love leaves us and passes on. 

I hope you find this episode reminds you of your own journey of ❤️‍🩹 healing.  

If you like the episode, don't forget to click follow and share a review if it speaks to you!  

00:00 Opening: A Conversation on Grief and Motherhood
01:35 The Complex  Feeling of Relief After a Loved One's Passing
04:53 Navigating Grief and Motherhood During a Pandemic
06:08 The Evolving Nature of Grief and Motherhood
10:37  Bess explores grief getting worse a year later.
15:13 Rediscovering and Connecting with a Lost Parent
17:21 Struggling with Loss of Identity amidst parenting
23:09 The Healing Power of Teaching and Learning from Grief
25:43 Exploring Hope, Joy, and the Future Amidst Grief
28:13 Navigating Grief and Finding Joy Again
29:01 The Evolution of Dread and Grief Over Time
29:46 Embracing the Holidays with a New Perspective
30:46 The Complex Layers of Grief and Self-Discovery
34:16 Seeking Signs and Embracing Memories
36:52 The Endless Journey of Grieving and Growing
41:34 Exploring Spiritual Beliefs and the Concept of Soul Contracts
46:12 Embracing Emotional Intuition and Healing Practices
52:31 Concluding Thoughts on Grief, Hope, and Healing

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Show Transcript

Hi, best. Thank you so much for coming on today and taking the time and letting us have this session together. We're starting here today because, um, we talked about your experience managing grief and motherhood together. And I think a lot of people can truly appreciate this, especially at this stage of our lives. And so I'm going to hand it over to you, I know one of the things I'm just going to put out there is life is not what you thought it would be. That's one of the things you mentioned and you envision this future that's just no longer true. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm really excited and for giving the space to talk about this because I think it's something I haven't really had the opportunity to put out into the world. So, yeah, so I mean, I'll give a little background maybe about my experience. I lost my mom in April of 2020 after she battled cancer, ovarian cancer for about two years. In those two years, I was her caregiver a lot of the time, and, um, we had a lot of ups and downs, hopeful moments, and letdowns, and whatnot, and at the end, she really was suffering, so it was kind of a relief at first when she passed, because she wasn't suffering anymore. and then a couple months later, I got pregnant with my twins. Okay so let's just take a moment because there is so much to this story that so there's so much to your story. So let's just take a moment to acknowledge that this is not a phenomenon that other people do not understand. You having your mom pass after caretaking going through, could you explain, like, what does it mean for you that it was a relief? Like, why was it relief? Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, while she was sick, I can't really even put into words, like, the level of stress that I was under, and how much I wanted her to. Get through it or to feel just a level of relief from her symptoms. Um, she was sick for it was like two stages and she had a diagnosis of cancer free or she was in remission or whatever for a period of time. Um, but. She was living in our house for quite some time because she's actually from Martha's Vineyard and so she was not able to get her treatment on the vineyard all the time. Sometimes she was, but sometimes she wasn't. But, um, my daughter at the, I think my daughter was two and three. I think she was just about to turn two when my mom was diagnosed. And, I, this is kind of like jumping around a little. When she was diagnosed, it was like, I had never thought that this was going to ever happen to us, like, I never had imagined that we would experience something like that, but not to us because we didn't have those types of things. Happened within our immediate family. We had a lot of like, good luck and like things were kind of flowing and going really well. And then around her 70th birthday was when she had the diagnosis. Um, so when she was with us sick, it was just really hard because I had to take on the caregiver role a lot of times. And I noticed myself having to soothe her and be there for her in her times of struggle. I remember one time after she had her, she had to have her hysterectomy right after she was diagnosed, and she woke up in the middle of the night screaming, thinking that animals were attacking her. She had had a, like, a really vivid dream. And so, you know, running into. Comfort her in the middle of the night. Um, but it felt like there was always something like every time my phone rang or every time I got a text message or, you know, my brother called or my dad called, it was just like, I felt like something bad had happened. So I was like always on edge, always under like extreme levels of stress when she was in there. Flight, just ready to go. Yeah. Extreme, extreme fight or flight, like, and there were like multiple times where there were emergencies that had happened and her treatment went wrong or she had horrible side effects. And so it was, you know, just 1 thing after another, always waiting for like the other shoe to drop. So when she passed, it was actually also like less than 1 month into COVID. So things were really just tough as it was. And I was really. Kind of grateful in the weirdest way that she wasn't living in that time, like she didn't have to go through all of that and we didn't have to be separated from her. Yeah. So it was, um, it was a big weight off our shoulders at first because I knew she wasn't in pain anymore and I knew that, you know, we didn't have to worry about getting those phone calls. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And to just, but to compact that your nervous system was taking on a pandemic just after your nervous system was taking on massive grief and loss. Like, wow, that must've been tremendously difficult to your body. Also, nevermind your heart and, you know, your, your rest of you, right? Yeah. I feel like physically, like I could feel it taking a toll on my body. I, I like was holding onto a lot of weight. I gained a lot of weight during the time she was sick and was holding onto it. And I feel like my body was just trying to like grasp at whatever it could to be. To be well or to get some relief. and actually the pandemic, I mean, it was awful what was happening, but it was giving it gave us some time to be. alone and have the peace and like have space from people bombarding us with, you know, wanting to see us or calling a lot. it was actually like a welcome break. Yes. Wow. I hadn't even considered that. Yeah. I can imagine it was like, you were able to have a cocoon. Yeah. I'm sure there was a really good excuse, but yeah, and it was a really good excuse. And so with that going on, and then I got Pregnant with my twins in June of 2020. And I didn't find out I was having twins until I think it was the end of August, something like that, that year. But, it was like, I had something else to focus on. So I would say like, after settling into motherhood with three children, it's really like the grief is more. Prominent now. And it just kind of, I find that the empty spaces where she would be are becoming more and more apparent. And so it's, it's like kind of a different, different process, a different timeline than I had expected. I thought that the beginning was going to be really hard. And it was like, that part was actually Decent. I mean, in terms of like being able to protect ourselves from, you know, having to do a lot of things or whatnot, but I'm having some relief like having the sense of the horror that was happening. The, gut wrenching pain that was happening, watching your mom go through what she was going through was over. And so I think a lot of us really can appreciate feeling that way, you know, that, that sense of relief that, that, that this part is over. And so there, I think for a lot of people there, as you know, cause best as a therapist, too, if you don't mind me saying that you, that, you know, like we go through. Um, sometimes we go through a little bump of a high, like, Oh, it's okay. You know, Oh, I'm good. I'm good. And then you go about your business and you, you know, you'd spend a little more time at home because of the pandemic. And maybe, you know, actually the pandemic probably could have even, I'm sure for people in your shoes who are experiencing grief right before the pandemic, it could actually, um, slow down that process in a way, because there's really something ginormous to focus on. Um, It distracts. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I definitely think it did. And also, like, coupled with just my personality in general, like, I tend to kind of, like, get, um, overwhelmed and drained by being around people a lot and doing lots of things unless it's, like, something that truly energizes me. So it was, like, kind of perfect timing for that because I was able to really, like, stay home and I could do my work from home via telehealth and all of that. And it was, like, I actually think I was kind of Thriving in that time because I did have like a moment of like, okay, I don't have to worry about my mom right now. And then I could, I also witnessed lots of people having to worry about loved ones that were going through similar things, like they were immunocompromised or whatever, you know, people who had. Loved ones with cancer during that time. It was awful because they couldn't see them. They didn't want to expose them to anything. And so I just imagined having to go through that with my mom. And it was something I just couldn't even fathom, especially like for how sick she was towards the end and watching her, you know, just kind of dwindle. Yeah. So it was definitely like a welcome break, I think, but it's definitely changed over the years. I think it's been three and a half years, which is wild, but, I think that it's different now. Could you talk a little bit about what is going on now? So, you know, as we talked about, yeah, it's been three years and, and you can feel free to share what's happened between then and, and now too, but just, wondering What it's like for you now, what it's been like for you in terms of the mothering piece because mothering really requires a lot of being present and you had twins and you could even speak to that too, because I know for many people who have twins, that depression, anxiety, all those, the hormonal changes that are just Quadrupled that everything is big. and so I'm just wondering with your already prevalent grief, what that was like. Yeah, I mean there were just so many like emotional shifts I feel like over the last I mean my twins are now two and a half and so I feel like. Coming into being a mother of three was a whole different change than being a mother of one child because I, you know, then had the mental load of all of it on top of managing like my own mental health. lots of anxiety, lots of depression on top of it. I have ADHD, so I'm like all kind of over the place in my mind all the time. That's where my hyperactivity lies. And so I feel like fast forward to now with my Mom's passing, I feel like I have actually like, I mean, I, I become more sad, but I'm also noticing recently, like I see signs of her and whatnot throughout my life have been really helpful in, in feeling her around me, but I feel like I understand her more. And at first, I think when she first passed, I felt like. Angry with her for a lot of things. Like there were things that I was frustrated with her about, like from my upbringing and then also from her, not like really trying to fight the cancer. Like, I felt like she kind of gave up a lot and that really upset me and why wouldn't she fight? And I think through becoming a mom of three, yeah, it, it was, I mean, that was really hard and I felt a lot of guilt for feeling that, but I think it was like, It was something I had to deal with in the beginning is just like being kind of like, why wouldn't you fight for us. then, as I've become further into mothering more than one child, and, you know, I don't know what it's like to have two children. So having three kids,, is a lot, and we don't have any, my mom was like the glue that kept our family together, so she was like the person that would have been here helping me, and would have been my go to to call when my kids are sick, or when there's some sort of issue, and asking her how she handled this when I was a kid, and all of those things. But I'm starting to, like, have more and more compassion for her, like, as I move on, like, she always would need to, like, lie down. We would make fun of her, kind of, because she would always be, like, she'd get maxed out, and then she'd need to, like, take a break and go lay down, and, like, she couldn't really handle, like Going for long periods of time with the kids or whatnot. Or even when I was younger, she had to do that. And like, I'm starting to really understand that because I'm feeling like, okay, I just need to lie down and it's not so much that I need to lie down cause I need to take a nap or whatever, but I need to have no one touching me. I need to be away from everyone. I needed a break. I need just to like be by myself. And like my alone time is so much more precious now. And I understand that more about her. And I understand. I bet your mom was also an empath. I bet your mom was such a big empath, just, you know, and you're such an empath too. And so your, your entire energy system gets is, is right. That boundary is different for you. And so being touched all day, being talked to all day, being around others all day, even if they're people we love, right. It can just be so overwhelming taxing to our system. And having three girls, like one thing that I, I mean, I knew in theory, you know, just from my work that like, you know, girls tend to be more emotional and it's definitely like, I think boys are more physical and they like, that's can be stressful and draining because boys are physical, but the draining aspect of, of having three girls right now has been two of them. One of them is kind of more chill, but two of them are very emotional. And so it's, it takes a lot out of. Me being the primary person to manage emotions in the household and so that's something that I think my mom definitely did because like my dad was not emotionally in the game so my mom was always regulating everyone's emotions, my brother and myself and so I think that I just have a lot more compassion for her about that and then she also was always seeking the game. Some sort of like spiritual understanding of like the meaning of her life the purpose of her life She actually it's funny. I just signed up for your Reiki class and my mom actually got her Reiki one I think maybe Reiki two as well when I was a kid. Yeah, and I remembered her doing Reiki on me and me thinking it was so ridiculous and but then it really working because I remember having like a lot of pain in my wrist one time. I had to have a cortisone shot and it like reacted really badly and I was in like excruciating pain and she did Reiki on my wrist and it like really helped. It was the only thing that helped. And so it's really neat to kind of like, now I'm, I'm coming back to like, I looked through her books and I found all the books and my dad and my brother always kind of made fun of her for always having quote self help books. But like, really, it was like the spiritual journey she was always on. which was really got to, it sounds like you really, one of the healing aspects that you're talking about is that you really got to re experience your mom. And I think a lot of us go through this after our parent dies, like we get to actually have a new relationship with them and it changes their relationship. It's not over. Right. And so you got to rediscover who your mom was and you're actually growing into the same lane that she was driving in. Right. Right. Like you're also. In that lane and kind of you're sharing this experience together, even though she's not here to talk about it. She's definitely watching. She's definitely seeing you expand energetically. She's certainly seeing you, you know, make the choices you're making and, it's, you know, I'm sure it feels pretty cool. Yeah, it is really cool. I feel like I'm kind of like taking over where she left off and in some sense where I can kind of like. Do some of the work that maybe she had left undone. Um, I actually found a journal that she had, I found it was like a simple abundance. I actually have it like on my desk. It's a simple abundance journal. And so it was the gratitude journal. And every day she wrote in it, but it was from the year that her mom died. And it's really interesting because I was. I was in like eighth grade, I think I was like 13 years old, which was, you know, a really kind of rough time for me emotionally. so it's really kind of neat to go back and read her gratitude journal during that period of time and like. Her mom was sick and she was caregiver for her and talking about her process through that was really kind of a neat thing to, to get to read and witness. Wow, that is so special. Like, wow. Yeah. It was really neat. So, having these sort of all these new experiences with mom in new ways, getting to know her on a deeper level, because she's not with you because you're putting pieces together and sort of reading them and feeling her. And that's been a comfort. It sounds like. Where are you struggling now? What is happening for you now that we can help you with today? Um, I mean, I feel like I still struggle with like who I am now, like what, who I want to be, like what my identity is both as a mom now, cause I feel like, you know, I've just engulfed myself in motherhood for the last seven and a half years. And I feel like I've kind of lost myself in that. I know a lot of moms experience that. I, I counsel a lot of moms who feel that way. I feel like that has shifted a decent amount. And I think a big part of that is that because my mom isn't here physically, that I, you know, I don't necessarily know what the future holds because family looks different because, you know, I had always pictured her in. My life now, and I had always pictured her being a huge part of my kids lives, and, you know, I think that that's a big thing, is like, how do I move forward and envision a future and have goals without her, and then also with my new identity as a mom, but without forgetting who I was. in some parts. What are you afraid of forgetting? I think that, you know, I, I think that there were parts of me, like creatively that I think I've kind of lost. I mean, they're still there. They're definitely still there. Like, you know, in terms of music and dance and, performing musical theater and all of those things, I think were really important parts of my life before. And, It's funny, I like see you, you get those Facebook memories and there's a couple of me going saying like, oh, I went to take a dance class and like my mom commenting like, I'm so glad you're taking care of yourself, that you always feel better when you go to dance class. And just like not having that person like remind me of those things I think is really like, it's hard'cause I think. You know, she was the person that would have reminded me there's no one else in my life that would say, Hey, you should go take a dance class or you should, you know, sign up for some voice lessons or like do a choir or something like that. Like she was the. Person that would have said that so it's like I have to remind myself of that and it's hard to remember I think so I think I'm worried about losing the essence of like who I was in those environments because there is like such a lack of time and energy and ability to kind of go when I have to take care of three kids. Yeah. It sounds like your mom really anchored you. Like she really kept bringing you back down to earth. Like she kept saying to you, these are, cause you know what? I think if we're lucky enough to have a decent relationship with our mother, that's relatively healthy. No, there's, there's totally imperfect parenting all the time going on everywhere. But if you were able to, be fortunate in this life to have that, nobody probably knows you better. Right. Yeah. Oh, nobody probably knows you deeply or better or as long. Right. And dad's kudos to dad's dad's out there can be doing that too. But I just want to say that what I hear in it for you is that your mom was such an anchor and she was the one in the world who knew you so well and she knew what you needed and she knew how to be there and she knew how to encourage you. So how are you now finding a new voice for that because she's not here and maybe you're tapping into her. Maybe you can still hear her encouragement, but maybe you could speak to like, how'd you find a place? Cause I'm assuming you have, I know we've talked before, so I know that you have found a little bit way out of the depression, anxiety, grief cycle. You're getting there. And so how are you doing it without her, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's like having these moments and grasping onto these moments where I like, I went home, you know, a few weeks ago and I went to a play and it was at my old high school and saw some friends perform and saw my old director who was just like, so fabulous and did so many shows with me. And it was like. These, this moment of, of connecting with people who do know me in a similar, not the same way my mom did obviously, but like in a similar way. And they knew me in a time where I was, you know, flourishing in that realm. I think it's like reminding myself and like trying to kind of have an inner voice that maybe is replicating what my mom would say is like having, having some. Reminders about self care and like, I have these little moments where like my kids will do something too I can hear what my mom would say if she saw them do it, like, Oh my gosh, did you hear that? Did you see that? And like, I'll listen to some, some videos that I took from when my, my older daughter was young and my mom's there and she's, I actually just saw one this morning where she was, My, my daughter was putting on my, my mom's makeup and she was, she was laughing and,, my mom was like, Oh, do you want to put it on your eyes? And she was like, no, I'll put it on my face. And my mom was like, Oh, my gosh, did you hear her give me attitude? And it was like this funny moment. And I'm like, I try to kind of remember the things that she would say. And that's really helpful. I think that also connecting with. Other people who have experienced grief actually has been really, really valuable to me. What have you noticed? I've noticed, it's actually like a lot in my work, where my experience, it's such a unique experience losing a parent young. So you You know, and before their time to pass. And I think, like, I've been attracting clients who That's how it works. have, you know, parents who have passed recently or a long time ago. And we can almost have this conversation that, like, no one else can have. And so, and they're, they're clients of all different ages, young adults, like, same age as me. And, it's been really valuable and healing for me to be able to speak out loud, like, well, you know, the feelings of, of like, not being able to imagine certain things. And then the different triggers too, that come up within like parenting and all of that, that reminds you of. Your, your parent that's passed, which is pretty interesting. I also have clients who are like in the process of losing a parent and that's been, I just feel like it's so valuable and healing for me to be able to support them through that. Yeah. And I think there is something to say about energetically just connecting with other people and not being alone. And I think that underneath it all, that's why we keep attracting all the same stuff. Like all my clients have my issues, right? So, you know, I learned from them as they learned from me. So it definitely is a way that, you're being held to, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like being a teacher is like one of the best ways to learn. I remember when I was like, I think I was like a freshman in high school, I played the drums and my band teacher who was my drum teacher at the time, he, for my lessons, he would have me teach some random beginner how to, how to play the drums. And I feel like that was like some of the most valuable. like, learning that I ever did about my, my own craft. And so that's, I feel like, more of what it is. It's like, they're definitely not supporting me through my grief, but being able to, like, have these, like, connections, but also be able to kind of help guide them. Maybe I'm, like, a little bit further in the process than they are most of the time. That's kind of the case. it's, you know, really super valuable to me and to them, yeah, it's, yeah, it's really, it's really interesting. I think that, well, I'm going to shift us just a little bit because I know that I asked you what we wanted to discuss today and how this could be helpful. One of the things that you mentioned was. Struggling with a sense of hope versus an absence of hope and also trying to work on joy versus dread. And I think that you've spoken to these two things without directly saying it, but I think that it would be helpful for us to explore that a little bit for you. And is it safe to visualize a new future? Right? Because that was something to, but., I'm just going to say what I know is that you had a lot of dread and you talked about that when we first saw how your whole nervous system was shot and then the pandemic and then the grief and grief alone, even without the pandemic, you know, a lot, it shoots our nervous system down. Every time the phone would ring, you worry something bad was going to happen. And that really comes from also long term illness when you have someone who's died with a long term illness. And so. Then we go into the grief cycle after they pass, and it gets really hard to feel joy again. Yeah. And dread almost becomes, dread's easier. It's a quick go to. It's actually easier to go to dread than it is to go to joy. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about your experience in that, because I think that's, It's true for a lot of us in terms of our grief. It's really, it's like, when can I peek back out and feel the sun again? When do I start to, how is it safe to let go of dread? Cause you know, that the body doesn't feel safe. So. Yeah, I think that, like, the experience of losing a parent after an illness also creates this, the sense of dread in the sense that, like, something always bad feels like it's going to happen, and if I, like, just imagine that something bad's going to happen, then I won't be surprised. It's kind of like a convoluted anxiety, but also That feels, like, productive, right? It felt like you were being productive. Exactly. subconsciously, like I wouldn't choose it, but I definitely experienced it. I also think that it, it's harder to, to settle into joy. at this point in the grief process, because like, for instance, this time of year is really hard for me going into the holidays, knowing that. Now, I need to make a decision about, like, Thanksgiving and Christmas and how I'm going to go about it and who I will be around, and I have a lot of dread around those experiences because I feel like I'm gonna be let down, no matter what, because my mom's not there. And so it's just she was always the glue that kept us together during those periods of time. And I mean, it's just not possible to have her there. And then our family just looks different. And so there's a lot of that, I think that. And then there's also the piece of. My children, I got to have grandparents, they weren't always perfect, but they were there and they were around and my, my mom was the real solid grandmother that my kids were going to have. And so I think the dread lies in like, there is nobody in that space and nobody can fill those shoes. So it's hard to find joy within that. Yeah. Do you feel though, even though it's hard to find joy, does dread still feel as prevalent or does it feel like that's shifted? I feel like this year feels a little bit different in terms of the level of dread. Last year was really hard. Last year was really hard. I think the ages that my kids were and the stage that I was at with the grief, like two years, was really rough. We started coming out of the pandemic. Things were starting to lift and get back to, quote, normal. And so it was becoming more obvious that she wasn't here. And so last year, during the holidays, was really hard. I think, like, One of my kids was sick on both holidays, too, and that really, like, made it tough and we ended up having to stay home and all of that. But this year, like, already with Halloween coming, like, my kids, all of them are super excited about Halloween. We have Halloween costumes. We're trying, I'm trying to kind of, like, do a little bit more action taking and be You know, I'm a DBT therapist, so I think about, like, opposite action. What do I want to feel like in trying to act that way a little bit more? And so, I think with the holidays, I'm trying to be like, Okay, I'm going to be, like, kind of over the top with trying to celebrate these things, because it does add to joy. So I do feel like things are different this year, and I'm starting to be able to see more of a future with my children and my husband, and with You know, what we have for family and the people around us. So I do think it's shifting a little bit. so I wouldn't say that the dread is as prevalent, but I definitely think that it is still like lingering it's in, it's in the back. Can I ask you what's the worst of it right now? If we can get, make a little space to be vulnerable here. What is the worst of it for you right now? I mean, I think it's like my. I'm I have a lot of like mood swings at this point. Like, I don't really know how I'm going to feel on a given day. Um, and I also think that that's related to the grief because I feel like some days I feel like really hopeful and like, feel like and that's those are. more rare, but not as rare as they used to be. Um, so I think that like finding, knowing what, how I'm going to feel on a given day about everything and about the state of life and, um, how I feel about being immersed in motherhood and then also feeling like kind of trapped in my circumstances. I think that that's, that's probably the worst right now. It's like feeling like, okay, I have, These beautiful children and they deserve everything and like sometimes I just don't have the energy to put into it because I have yet to really take good care of myself after all the stuff that I've gone through. Yeah, so can you speak to that burnout? It sounds like you have experienced burnout, you know, in most general sense of the word. I mean, I think it's like the person that I want to be and the person I know that I can be in my family and the mom that I know that I can be and I'm what I'm capable of versus what, like, I can put into practice each given day, like, I think is, is different. And so it's like a struggle between like, What my desire is and what I, like, envision could potentially be how things are versus, like, how it is reality wise. And so maybe we can also look at how multi layered this is for you and everybody else, too. And that grief isn't just, oh, I lost my mom and I miss her. Grief is also, I lost myself. Because. Right. Yeah. Even makes me feel sort of emotional right now as I'm saying that to you, but the sense of loss of who I am, who I, what grief has done to me and how that's changed me in a way that I feel the loss of myself. Yeah. I feel like a lot of that is because of the amount of love that she gave to me and like That no one else in my life could give in the same way. And so being loved like that is just like, can keep you going. You know, it's like an energy life force to be loved like that, to like have someone in your corner, cheering you on, like excited about everything you're doing. And, I know that I was super fortunate to have a mom who was like that and that I, you know, No, that not everyone has that. I feel like that's the hardest thing is to like, not have, like, I have to be that for myself now and I can't always be, and I think that that's the burnout piece is like, sometimes I'm just tired of telling myself, like, you got this, you can get through this day, you can, you can do this, when like. I had that like, if I was feeling upset, I could call her and I call her 400 times a day and she wouldn't get annoyed. I don't think that I have another person in my life I can call 400 times a day without getting annoyed., but yeah, it's like, it's wild. Like,, for a little while, I was like looking for signs that she was Giving me and recently. Yeah. Yeah. So I had, I have, I've heard that like you can kind of pick a sign and like put it out there and say, this is going to be the sign that I'm going to use. And I had a while ago, I want to say it was like almost a year ago, or maybe even like last time, but I said that the sign was blue jays because like, I don't know, they're kind of, they're rare sightings to see a blue jay, but they're common enough that they're around and they really hadn't seen any blue jays. Like I hadn't really seen any. And then this last week I literally have seen so many blue jays coming around my, like there was this one day where they were just like all flocking together. Um, and then I had this other experience that wasn't something I had put out, but, um, I was in the grocery store and I heard the song, you know, the song, my guy, it's like an old song. So my mom would do song every single year with these two other women from the vineyard in our, like, talent show in my elementary school. And the very first year they ever did it, what they did this song, my guy. And it was like, it's totally like. I'm like in the meat section and the song comes on and I'm like almost about to burst into tears and I'm like, these are the moments that like, I get a little sign from her. I feel like it's, it's just like, you know, just so to say this out loud to clarify too is you know when you're getting a sign. Yeah, that sign. Runs through your body, your nervous system, all of it. It's not like, huh, it's not just a thought. This could be that I'm going to give it that this is what this is. It's a whole body experience of holy shit. This is happening. And This is real and it just makes your whole body buzz a little bit, right? Absolutely. Yeah. It just made me want to like text the one of the women that was in the show with her and say like, Oh my God, this song came on. it just like it warms my heart when I have those moments and like also makes me really sad because I just miss her. And it's like such a weird. And I think I've said this to you before, like, it's just bottomless. Like, there's no amount of dealing with it that is helpful. Um, but yeah, the burnout, I think, is like, definitely a thing that has happened just from, like, not having that conversation. It's almost like I'm pouring from an empty cup sometimes and she would like fill my cup. Yeah. I heard you say it's bottomless. And I think that, that's probably why you had mentioned that you were struggling with a sense of hope, versus an absence of hope. And when we get into a really dark place and it feels bottomless. I can appreciate that maybe, and you can speak to this, what resonates with you in this, but I can appreciate that that bottomlessness is what feels like it's really hard to feel hope because it doesn't feel like there's any way. And you just logically know there's no way I'm just going to suddenly be over this. So I'm going to feel this way forever. Can you talk to that? Yeah. I feel like the process of the grief for other people who lost my mom, because my mom had a lot of like, really close people. And like, I'm not saying that it's not really hard for them to, but I feel like that you can kind of like move on a little bit in like people can move on in their lives and like remember her and feel sad and miss her and all of that. But for me and for my brother, and I have to say, we've shared this a lot, is that it just almost is like, It feels like I don't even want to like start feeling it because it's like there's no real end to it. I don't move past it. There's no other side of this. It's like, it's just kind of gets deeper and like more kind of. Difficult in a sense and I think like you let you move on in a sense where you start living your life differently and and more fully and I think that like, you know, my mom never knew my twins, which is just so wild to me. I have like these two beings in my life who are so important and she never knew them in this life. And so it's, it's like, They don't even really know who she is. I was showing one of my twins this morning a picture of her and I was like, that's your Mimi. She's in heaven. And then she was like, my Mimi? And I was like, yeah, that's your Mimi. so I think that like, yeah, the bottomlessness is this, like, I don't know. It's just, it's so, there's no like end to it. You can't get past it. You can't resolve it and I'm like really good at resolving problems because that's what I do in my work a lot of the time. But with grief, it's like, it's not a thing that you resolve. It's not, you don't fix it. You don't feel really better from it. You feel differently. you learn to cope in different ways. But it's definitely like, it's hard to have a sense of hope, yeah, when you feel like that's just always going to be a part of your experience. It's, it's always in the background, right? It's always in the background, but you have the ability to create more and more, more joy, more outlets for good. In your foreground, right? And your, your ground, does it, it's also given me this, this ability to like, stand on my own 2 feet more, I think, which is like a thing that, like, I think if we were like, to look at what, what the positives have been to having to deal with. Not having her is that I relied on her for a lot of my emotional well being and I think that, like, I've created a lot more internal strength, like, abilities to, to manage my own emotions. I also, the other thing that I think is really important to know is that I wouldn't have had my twins. If my mom hadn't passed away, because I was not wanting to have another baby while she was sick. I didn't want to be pregnant while she was sick. And we made very like clear choices about whether we were going to have more children. we of course wanted to have one more child and then we got blessed with two. But I, I really don't think I would have. I would have gone forward with, if she, like, stayed sick and was chronically ill for a long time, because a lot of times cancer can be a chronic illness, I wouldn't have had them. And so I think that they are gifts into my life that, like, I've yet to really, like, fulfill. Like, I don't know the, that's also, like, an endless thing that I'm really not sure. What that's going to look like, and it's cool to watch their personalities bloom., but those are things that wouldn't have happened if she hadn't passed away. Yeah. Wow. So you're able to kind of see, and I think this is three years in, right? So you're able to see, okay, so I can start, cause I don't know if we could have a conversation two years ago about like, what are the positive sides of this? Right. Right. No. So. You can see there's progression in your healing just by you simply being able to say there's some positives here, right? Yeah. I, and, and now maybe you can hear this where, you know, I wouldn't have said this to you three years ago, but the old saying, as you know, that everything is happening exactly how it needs to happen for you to become who you are meant to become and they can't be different. So if you were to look at That the stars are aligning and everything is happening exactly how it needs to happen. And your mom is like cheering you on to the sidelines. She's loving your kids. She could, she is not worried about not being here with them because she feels like she is. And she knows she's going to be a part of their lives in her way and that she's working her magic because I do believe she's forever one of your guides because she's always close whenever we're, even now I feel her around us as we're talking. And so can you feel in your heart that someday this will even make more sense? That, that there is this hope towards healing that you're going to see, and you'll get to see her again someday, right? But this is exactly what the sole contract was between you and her, that the two of you signed up for, that you're going to go through this together. She's going to have all her baggage of shit and you're going to have yours and she's going to be, you know, a good, great mom here. She's going to struggle here, but also that she's going to leave at this time. And then you knew coming down here. Just imagine that you knew coming down here. This is exactly what was planned. And here you are in the road and it's so hard to be here on earth, being a freaking human. But does it, can it bring you any relief? Can it bring you, do you, can you see hope opening up to the idea that This is exactly what the path is, and therefore if you can believe that it's a sole contract, can it bring you some comfort knowing that there's still so much to learn. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's like, it's, I think what's, what can be challenging is that like, I truly believe in, I believe that Everything happens exactly as it should be, um, and that's why it's so wild, and I think that I'm also someone who likes to know, like, I want things to like, I want to process things quickly, like, and it's, it's still new, her passing, and even her being sick, like, were, like, five years ago. It's like you're impatient. I want to be better. I'm so impatient. And that's something that's like, it's like, I want to have like, okay, I did this. And like, I want to move through it. And like, I want to come out the other side and feel like a sense of joy and be at peace and have this, like, you know, spiritual life that feels really fulfilling and like all this stuff. And I feel like. I struggle with that. I bang up against that a lot. And so, but deep down, I do believe that. Yes, you're a human and you're supposed to be all like when you're on this path, you're supposed to fall off and get dirty and be a mess and maybe stay stuck in the mud for as long as it takes to get into the light again. And so. Let's just speak to the what's the word I'm looking for dichotomy of these two parallel things that are happening. And one is I'm a spiritual being and I believe these things and they do enlighten me and they do help me. But at the same time, I'm in the trenches and it's dirty and it's dark and it sucks and it's painful. And I miss my mom and this is so depressing. And. That in itself is a lot to hold both sides of those things, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that like just the beginning stages of motherhood, like with having young children, it's so weird how like we expected to kind of to get through it before when they're like infants, it's like that's the hard part. And then they get older and you're supposed to just like move on and be like, fine. But I think that like I have, I still have very little children and I forget that sometimes and don't give myself the grace. That's like, this is just a really, really tough time of parenting and then to add to not have my mom to like bounce things off of and like, you know, have that outlet. I think that. It's just, yes, human, all of that is true. I think that I just, I absolutely feel a sense of relief, even just with this conversation about like thinking that everything is turning out how it kind of should be and that if I were to let go of trying to control it all and allow things to flow a little more, I might actually feel a little bit more joy. Yeah. Have you done any reading at all, in terms of processing grief and sort of like the spiritual books that kind of help you guide you, feed you? I haven't read many spiritual books, but I did start reading, Megan Devine's It's Okay to Not Be Okay. I think that's what it's called, but she's, she's really fabulous in the grief world. Like she does a lot of grief work and actually just after my mom died, I did this writing workshop online. through her company. and that was really wonderful, but she does a great job speaking to like the complexity of grief and like how, especially when it's like grief of a death that was like not in line with the natural progression of life. Like it was, it was kind of like sudden or early or whatever. Um, so I really liked her stuff, but I would love to read some other books if you have any recommendations. I will, I'll put some in the notes. Um, okay. Yeah, I'll put some in the show notes and there are definitely some books out there that just feed your soul a little bit when it's so, you know, it's feeling so dark and hard and it just kind of does, you know how you feel comfort from this conversation. you know, it takes a village, right? We need to receive from all levels, podcasts, books, things that, you know, feed us along the way. We have to make time for, right. So, but before we finish, I just want to ask you, is there anything that you feel like is still sort of blocking you that we haven't discussed? I feel like what we just touched on was really, really helpful. And I feel like I kind of want to like hold on to that. And maybe if there are any things that you recommend for practices going forward, like in terms of mindfulness or other types of things. I really feel like you just need to keep moving stuck emotions out of your body. And so,, even if right now you were to take a moment, I'm probably going to be doing this a lot on this podcast because I do believe everybody needs to hear it over and over. And I think we all need to be doing it over and over. Um, if you were to ask your body right now, just in after this whole conversation, and it can be positive too, I suppose, but if you were to just ask your body, what is it that I need to feel today? What is it that's willing to be released today? What do I need? What needs my attention right now? That's a good question. And then just sit for a moment. And notice that emotion start to pull up and you will notice it go to either a certain space, but people feel in their throat. A lot of people feel it in their chest. A lot of people feel in their stomach. Um, I've had someone say their whole arm froze up and then give it a shape. Cause I just think visually it's, it's nice to give it a shape and then take a moment and identify and say, what are you? And then you want to ask, what do you need for me to feel better? And you need to listen. Like so many of us are like, we're in that meditation and we're crying and we didn't even know we had it in us to cry. Right. We crying. We feel that thing and we get that nudge and that will come to you. And that information, sometimes it will come in. I've had it come myself and like a picture, like a movie, like a memory that flashed in front of me. I'm like, Oh wow. I hadn't even thought about that. And what I. Nor would I say that I was still carrying it. Um, and then I realized I need to heal it or it can be, you hear it, right? It's time best. It's time to work out again. It's time to take action best. You've got to get these things in line best. Please drink more water, whatever it is that you experience. Right. The question sequence is what do I need to feel today? I'm writing it down. Okay. What do I need to feel today? Sit. Sometimes you got to be patient best and that might be hard. Sometimes if your brain has been running a hundred miles a minute, you've got your caffeinated, whatever, you know, you're in do it mode. You're, you're an autopilot. To tap back into the, and this is emotional intuition. So to tap into that emotion and that intuition is hard. Um, so it might take you to sort of relax the whole body, relax the jaw, you know, do it clearing where we clear all the stuff that doesn't belong to us out our feet into the ground, where we push down all the stuff that doesn't serve us into the ground, settle the body, and then ask the question, what do I need to feel today to feel better? What can I feel right now to feel better? don't worry about being perfect. And then the next question is, what are you when it comes up? Because if you sit there and even if it takes. If you sit there and you start to notice it, notice where it is, notice its shape. What are you? And I'm telling you, it's not just grief, right? Grief is the umbrella, but what is being stuffed is shock, fear, terror, you know, like, um, things that are happening that are so multi layered that you can't get to it. Until you do this and the intuition kicks in because you're connecting to your intuitive self, your higher self, you're getting the information and then you just sit and wait for it and allow whatever and trust whatever comes up. You trust whatever it is. And then the next thing that you say is, what can I do to, what can I do to make you feel better? You name it, anger, resentment, jealousy, whatever. What is it that you need? How can I help you feel better and sit there with that? It'll come to you, trust that it'll come to you and then say, thank you. And then do it again. What else do I need to feel here today? You got to sit there and ask the second and the third, and that's probably all you got. And maybe you won't even get a second, but that is how you release the body of the emotion because I would say 99. 9. I don't think I could say a hundred really, um, that when I do that with people and they actually do it. And they go there if we, if we scaled them first, like on a scale of one to 10, how anxious are you? And how big is this emotion you're feeling that like, it's huge. They will tell you it's completely gone. They don't feel it in the body anymore. And it is. I believe it. Yeah. So maybe that'll be helpful. Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Bess. This was so lovely to talk to you and hopefully we'll do it again. Yeah. Thank you so much, Michelle. This is great.